Drums...Come on Guys please?

[cwight]

Ok a bit of a complaint. I love the new setup and thanks for all the work you have put in, but the way the drums work now is a real pain and discourages collaboration.

If someone creates a riff the Instant Drummer session used is effectively locked. This means that if I don't have that instant drummer installed I hear no drums. But even worse is that I can't even change the drums to a pattern I do have.

At least on the previous set up, if I didn't have the drum session used I could change it to one I did have, or even just use one of the demo sets to make sure I was in the groove.

Can't we have the old system back in terms of the drummers please?

Or even better, allow all users to hear the drums (whether they have purchased them or not) but only those who have purchased them to change them.

Are we about creating money or music guys?

[mickeymix]

There working on drum streaming so you can hear what ya don't have ................soon......hopefully...........

[scott]

Ok a bit of a complaint. I love the new setup and thanks for all the work you have put in, but the way the drums work now is a real pain and discourages collaboration.

If someone creates a riff the Instant Drummer session used is effectively locked. This means that if I don't have that instant drummer installed I hear no drums. But even worse is that I can't even change the drums to a pattern I do have.

At least on the previous set up, if I didn't have the drum session used I could change it to one I did have, or even just use one of the demo sets to make sure I was in the groove.

Can't we have the old system back in terms of the drummers please?

Or even better, allow all users to hear the drums (whether they have purchased them or not) but only those who have purchased them to change them.

Are we about creating money or music guys?

Believe us Col, this one has been batted back and forward for a long time but it's on Dan's "next in line to do" list.
One of the reasons it changed was because collab originators (the song owners) were taking time to find the right drummer for their song, choosing the beat they needed and then fiddling with the intensity and variation - all fairly time consuming stuff. Then someone, as you point out, either changes the settings or the whole drummer (if they don't have it). This change is then held on the RiffLink server so that when the song owner comes back, it's all different and they have to redo the whole thing again to the way they wanted it. People complained a lot when this happened so Sonoma have reacted to customer requests.
That's one point.

The issue of letting users use drums they don't own actually own has legal consequences in terms of copyright. Sonoma are actively trying to find a way to solve the issue and to stream the ID audio to users - so the guys are again listening to what we're all saying.

The issue of 'locked drummers' have been aired in the beta forum because the testers mostly felt, like you, that it stifled collaboration and that, without owning the drummer being used, you couldn't add a riff because you couldn't even choose a metronome sound to play along to.

So don't feel too disgruntled. I think we're all singing from the same songsheet and the good thing is that, unlike almost all other software developers, Sonoma actually listen to their customers.

Sonoma are most definitely about creating music!

[cwight]

Thanks for the responses guys. maybe an interim option might be for the person who adds the collab to have a locking option.

Other thing is that if they are public collabs you kind of expect people to mess around (or at least I do). I'm not sure you can stop the beast from playing if you know what I mean.

Another alternative might be to have an implicit agreement that public collabs use demo options; bit draconian I know, but Mickey just tried all sorts of things to a recent collab to let me hear the drums, but all it did was snag up his computer i think. sorry Mickey, but thanks for trying anyway.

Am I right in thinking, though, that If I duplicate a riff I get ownership, hence can add my drums. That way, as long as I use a demo set, the song originator can add their own drums at the remix stage....? or maybe not...

Also the hearing but not changing option doesn't seem to run into any copyright option cos we all hear them in Riffcaster; although there might be complex technical issues about how you do that.

I do accept that everyone is trying their best, so this is not a mega complaint....

[davenz]

I think the ability to sync an external drum machine with a trigger signal (midi or similar) would go a long way to allowing users to create their own drums, therefore getting around all this copyright legalese hoo-haa.

Dave.

[beauzeau]

Sorry, I just posted my own thread regarding this, but you mentioned something that warrants a look. The copyright thing.

Why not buy the drum content from providers? Certainly, there are some drum loop creators that would be more than happy to sell Sonoma their loops straight up without any regard to copyright or "royalties"? We're talking about drum loops here, not complete musical compositions.

SONOMA writes the rules regarding their instant drummers. NOT the 3rd party providers.

Here's an idea, Sonoma could approach a dozen or so drum content providers. Tell them that you're looking to buy two dozen or so drummers to be used exclusively for rifflink. Tell them (don't ask them) that you're willing to pay five hundred bucks per drummer, that's it. No royalties, no keeping track of what was used where. 500 bucks, and the drummer belongs to Sonoma to be used exclusively in rifflink content forever. In return, Sonoma will ALLOW the provider to create drum content in the instant drummer format for riffworks, their flagship product, where the provider will earn royalties based on sales. The important thing here is, SONOMA remains in charge of the rifflink content. Not the 3rd party provider. If it's the only offer Sonoma puts on the table, I guarantee you, content providers will still be aching to get their content in the Sonoma store.

The key to all this is 'USERS ALWAYS MUST BE ABLE TO HEAR THE DRUMS IN A COLLAB, PERIOD.' The only way you can do that now, is to buy ALL the drummers. Many noobs probably think "what a racket" when they first try to collaborate and find themselves having to buy a drummer in order to do so. Because riffworks is so easy to use, this is the last thing you want to happen. Sonoma should be doing everyting in their power to ensure that when a person downloads the demo, installs it, and gets on rifflink, they become hooked instantly. Hard to do if the users are thinking "oh I see, they make all their money from the drummers....."

Rifflink is a revolution waiting to happen as far as I'm concerned. It just needs to be as easy to use and as comfortable as riffworks itself. If there's no way to currently meet the expectations of content providers, then rifflink has to adapt. Here are a few more ideas. I'm no expert on any of this stuff, though I do play one online....

1. Make rifflink ONLY work with stock drummers.
Yeah, this may stifle creativity a bit (unless you expand on the stock drummers, which would be nice), but you certainly wouldn't have to worry about someone not being able to hear the drums.

2. Make rifflink automatically "mix to riff" the drummer on a song.
We, as individual users can do it, and the providers are apparently not complaining....

3. Give rifflink it's own set of instant drummers.
I like this idea alot too. Sonoma could provide the rifflink side of things with, say, a dozen instant drummers that are exclusive to rifflink. Again, all paid subscribers could use the RL drummers freely. It's included with their rifflink subscription. Add a new drummer to RL every six months or so, and the users would be MORE than happy with it.

I know, you guys are on it! Sorry for venting and stuff! I too understand the work you guys are putting into it. So again, no 'complaint' with it really, just trying to understand it and share any fantasies I might have!

[Wedgebill]

Dan is talking seriously about drum streaming

[Charvelguy]

For timing to be (musically more or less) dead on, I myself prefer to at least work with hearing the 'tic, tic, tic' of the metronome bomb rather than nothing. I can understand locking the drummers out, but I have a little more trouble with why you would not allow a simple basic meter tool like a metronome to remain an option. A simple unchecking of the box and the creator has his creation back to the way it was before and the collaborator still has a means in which they can keep time. (altho, I have been known to use effects too on the metronome to 'get drums'.)

I suppose that is after the fact since the latest update has been issued. Not trying to be nitpicky but if I don't have a way of keeping time, it definitely makes playing a contributing part more interesting. If I had the option, I would prefer to take the metronome over nothing but as Bill & Mick mention.. a streaming option is being putforth as a workaround.

That will likely create some problems in itself since the CPU resources are fairly significant with just using RW w/o stream.

[dug]

I won't say how many, but right now we are selling more than that of each drummer. If we weren't why would the drum companies bother putting them in our format? We are working on a solution, but that solution has to make both customers and partners happy. I think the InstantDrummers at $10 a piece are a great value. Being able to buy them any time of day or night is pretty convenient.

The collaboration thing bends the laws of space and time. If you showed up to rehearse and you own a bass, then everyone at the rehearsal can hear it while you're there. And if they record it, then it's on the tape for ever, even if you leave. So that's what we're thinking with the drummers. If you bring the drummer to the collab, everyone should hear it, but only the owner can control it. Hopefully, we'll get it working and the drum partners will understand the deal and be happy with it. I know one at least is happy with the concept.

There's no "racket" going on here. Of course we wouldn't mind if everyone bought all the drummers, but that's not our intention:) We're pushing the envelope of what can be done and it takes time for everything to catch up. We could wait longer to give it to you guys, but there are somethings we don't know how they should work until you guys try it and tell us what you like and don't. Just like this:)

Yes, the metronome should not be disabled, I agree.

cheers,
dug

[cwight]

Hi Dug,

many thanks for the response.... I think we all appreciate both the work you put in to this at Sonoma and the restrictions you work under. And I personally (although I suspect everyone else does as well) really love the possibilities this program opens up.

Enabling the metronome would be a real help, but if you can persuade the drum providers to allow us to hear drums, but not use or change them, if we have not purchased them, then this would be a great solution.

of course buying the drums is the best option, because it allows creativity all round, but I doubt it's feasible to expect everyone to have every set, so unless we have a workaround it won't happen.

Hopefully, if you manage to swing agreement it might even lead to more sales because people will hear and work with a certain set and decide they have to have it.

Once again thanks for all your efforts...

[davenz]

One thing that would help end users is a midi clock out so we can sync external drum machines, which would solve a lot of these issues. But, I appreciate the loss of revenue such a move would make because then people wouldn't 'have' to buy drummers. It's a bit of a predicament.

Dave.

[beauzeau]

Firstly, my post above is pretty much obsolete since I saw that you can now see the drummer a collab is using in riffworld. I can now join a collaboration without worrying whether or not I'll be able to hear the drums or not. If I don't have the drums, I just don't join the song.

I know you guys aren't running a racket. Anyone who's poked around on the site can see that you are all passionate about what you're doing.

You make a strong point with with the bass player parallel. I keep hearing "streaming" and guess I need to just search the forums to see what I come up with on that. Does streaming mean lossy drums for collaborators? Even if so, it seems like a way to ensure that everyone hears the drums.

Ten dollars for a single drummer (in this format) I can handle. But certainly not in any other format! Being able to buy them anytime of the day or night IS also very convenient.

Hopefully, what you're planning will work out well. It sounds good. Let's just hope that it sounds good!

[a345stud]

seems to me you could set the drums to default back, to the creators pick when you leave the song that way at least you could add some percussion while listening to the collab.