Timing differences in 2.1 vs 2.5 output "mixes"

[Gerk]

Hi all

I opened up a couple of songs I started on on 2.1 with the newly installed T4 2.5 and I noticed that the timing was a bit strange in places (mostly with the Instant Drummer stuff). Just for kicks I did a test -- I output a mix from 2.5 that I had an identical mix of that I did with 2.1 and loaded them in my DAW. I put one track out of phase with the other -- which should have resulted in silence as they cancel each other out if the timing is the same.

In this case it was not! I output a file of the "differences" ... the audio you hear in this file is only the audio that is out of alignment with the previous mix. While I don't think it's the end of the world it is a bit of a concern. When I compared identical mixes both out of the 2.5 version they reacted as they should have (total silence).

Here's the "differences" output. It's not too bad until you get to about 18 seconds in, then pretty much everything is variously out of sync with the previous version.

http://www.studiogerk.com/wireworks/rw_timing_test_differences.mp3

Not sure if this is an indicator of a problem (or a problem that no longer exists as of 2.5), but on a couple of songs the Instant Drummer definitely feels lagged. I haven't changed buffer settings or anything else on my setup, hardware or software. Maybe 2.1 was not sample accurate but 2.5 is??

[blue4u]

Interesting indeed! Are you on the beta team yet? This would good for them to know....

[Gerk]

No I'm not on the beta test team ... but if I can ever get my RW standard version going I would be willing

[kwjolin]

Hey Gerk, I feel like a bit of a dumbass....I have no idea what a DAW is?

[JouniL]

Digital Audio Workstation

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A digital audio workstation (DAW) is an electronic system designed to record, edit and play back digital audio. A key feature of DAWs is the ability to freely manipulate recorded sounds.

The term "DAW" simply refers to a general combination of audio multitrack software and high-quality audio hardware — the latter being a specialized audio converter unit which performs some variety of analog-to-digital (ADC) and/or digital-to-analog (DAC) signal conversion. For example, a workstation could have eight discrete audio inputs, and two or more audio outputs for playback monitoring or routing signal to other devices. Systems can have as few as two mono inputs and outputs — the discrete audio inputs and outputs provide for simultaneous multitracking dual mono sources or stereo recording. A professional DAC performs the same function as a common sound card, but is generally of higher quality and offers sonic or functional advantages when compared with its consumer cousin.

While almost any home computer with multitrack and editing software can function somewhat as a DAW, the term generally refers to computer systems which have high-quality external ADC-DAC hardware, and some form of audio software; some of which is commercial proprietary software. Besides having high-end sound cards most DAWs also require a large amount of RAM, fast CPU(s) and sufficient free hard drive space.

/Jouni

[Hayden]

Hello Gerk,

Hopefully support will be helping you out getting Standard to run. Just off the top of my head, I would recommend repairing the disk permissions on your drive. Launch Disk Utility from Applications/Utilties, and then select your HD icon on the top left. In the lower middle of the window, you should then see Verify Disk Permissions and Repair Disk Permissions. Click Repair Disk Permissions.

Try launching RiffWorks after that.

To answer your mix comparison question, there's a compressor/limiter on the master output of RiffWorks which we changed in version 2.5. What you're hearing in your inverted comparison, is the differences in the old and the new compressor/limiter. Basically, the new compressor let's a lot more attack through with a lot less pumping and breathing. You can hear that in your audio file as the beginning of the strums come through, along with the click of a cowbell and what not.

You mentioned though that the Instant Drummer felt strange. What was strange about it? How off was the timing? Just a feel thing, or the beat wasn't where it should have been?

Hayden

[Gerk]

And just in case anyone was curious .. the DAW that I use is MOTU Digital Performer.

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp

[Gerk]

Hello Gerk,

Hopefully support will be helping you out getting Standard to run. Just off the top of my head, I would recommend repairing the disk permissions on your drive. Launch Disk Utility from Applications/Utilties, and then select your HD icon on the top left. In the lower middle of the window, you should then see Verify Disk Permissions and Repair Disk Permissions. Click Repair Disk Permissions.

Try launching RiffWorks after that.

To answer your mix comparison question, there's a compressor/limiter on the master output of RiffWorks which we changed in version 2.5. What you're hearing in your inverted comparison, is the differences in the old and the new compressor/limiter. Basically, the new compressor let's a lot more attack through with a lot less pumping and breathing. You can hear that in your audio file as the beginning of the strums come through, along with the click of a cowbell and what not.

You mentioned though that the Instant Drummer felt strange. What was strange about it? How off was the timing? Just a feel thing, or the beat wasn't where it should have been?

Hayden

Hi Hayden

I've repaired disk permissions and done about all I can regression wise to get things to work including going from 10.5.5 to 10.5.6 (they just released the update). T4 still works fine, RW standard will not launch at all. I can provide more information about my setup if required once support contacts me. I repaired permissions both before and after the 10.5.6 update. I don't think I've done it since trying to install 2.5 so I will give it a shot again.

Ahh that makes sense about the compression .. so it's not a timing thing, it's an output level thing

The timing problems with Instant Drummer seem a bit hard to pin down with certainty. It seems like they are just a tiny bit behind where they used to be, at least on the patterns that I was using. There's one song in particular I was working on that when I loaded in 2.5 it felt like my timing was off on everything, but it seems that the Instant drummer has maybe just a few milliseconds more latency than it was with 2.1. If you want more details I'm happy to provide anything I can. I might have just not noticed the timing issues before on this song, but when listening on the latest version they seem very noticeable and I'm sure I would have noticed this in the previous version. This happens with both my local copy of the song and the riffcasted version of it.

If it makes any difference I use hardware monitoring for playback and usually for recording, but with this particular song I recorded it with software monitoring (as I was using the built-in amplitube plugin for my guitar)