Modeling vs. the "real thing"

[blue4u]

MODELING VERSUS THE "REAL THING"
by Craig Anderton

Want to start a brawl? Get a group of guitar players together, and just say the word "modeling." Some will contend that modeling can never sound like an amp - that it sounds thin, flat, and lifeless. Others will say that modeling lets them get a collection of sounds they'd never be able to get otherwise, and that it sounds great. Sounds thin! Sounds great! Sounds flat! Sounds fantastic! (Better duck before someone lands a punch on you.)

But while I often hear people say an amp simulator can't sound like a physical amp, the reverse is also true: A physical amp can't sound like an amp sim. If you want to hear what a step-sequenced wa-wa with backwards echo sounds like going through an AC30 with a Twin Reverb cabinet while split into a JCM800 with an Orange cabinet, it's possible to set that up in hardware but it's expensive and time-consuming. For an amp sim, that kind of scenario is all in a day's work.

However, there's a far more important issue at play here, so listen up: The amp sim's presets were not designed with you in mind. Odds are they were done by someone with a different guitar, with different pickups, who uses a different type of pick than you do, and plays a different style of music. If you just step through the presets, the odds are against those sounds being perfect for you.

I've played with enough amp sims over the years that I'm pretty confident in making this statement: Unless you know how to tweak the software, you won't be able to exploit amp sims to their fullest. As one example, I was testing out Line 6's GearBox software for a review, and I thought the sounds were dreadful. What were they thinking?!?

Well apparently, they were thinking with a guitar that had a lower output than mine - or maybe they didn't play as hard, or used a thinner pick with lighter gauge strings. In any event, as soon as I pulled back the preamp gain control, everything snapped right into place. Nasty, fizzy distortion turned into beefy, chunky sounds. Thin lead lines became lyrical and sweet...you get the idea. And my first experience with Native Instruments' Guitar Rig (and every other amp sim, for that matter) was similar.

So, the bottom line with evaluating amp sim software isn't just about the raw sounds and components that are available for making various sounds, but how easy it is to tweak them to your bidding - if you have to go through pages of sub-menus just to pull back the treble, you're not going to be happy!


Care to discuss? What have your experiences been with amp modeling? I have a true love/hate relationship going and am never satisfied I guess that makes me a guitar player? Ha ha

[pooterpatty]

I agree completely. If you're not willing to tweak a modeler, you probably won't get a good sound out of it. As far as sounding thin/flat/lifeless, I couldn't disagree more.

At a recent show we did, an old friend of mine came out to watch us play. He's what I like to call a "tube snob" - someone who shuns modelers and anything solid state, and is vocal about it to the point of annoying the piss out of everyone in earshot. I didn't tell him anything about my rig until the end - he was amazed to learn that (at the moment) there's not a single vacuum tube in my rig. This is a guy who's been playing for 30 years and was just certain that modelers couldn't come close to emulating tubes. My Plexi "patch" was good enough to fool his golden ears

Right now I love amp modeling. I like the flexibility it gives you on stage and for recording. Plus you can reduce the size and weight of your rig since you're not hauling around that monstrosity you call a pedal board

[blue4u]

Good feedback Poots! Thanks!! Anyone else like to chime in??

[meesh]

I'm all about analog and tube and such but that's got a lot to do with not knowing how (and often too impatient) to get the most out of digital amps to sound natural

Poot - I'd love to know what tricks you use to tweak your pre sets and sounds. You get the smoothest most natural sounding patch tones I've heard.

Do you have a system of what you look to tweak first?

[lostylost]

Meesh, I think you get some *great* tones. I thought you used a toneport for recording?

[ShredRex]

Nothing wrong with modelling.......I recently bought the POD X3 Live......and will never need anything else to record or play live. I found great tones right off the bat....technology is growing in leaps and bounds and the argument is becoming moot really.

There are always the die hards, and the purists.....but to each their own. I say use what works for you, but there is no denying the awesomeness of modelling, and the flexibility it provides. Good luck having all that tone and toys at your disposal without modelling.

Besides truth be told, go into any major studio, and chances are they are using modelling more than conventional amps and miking. Again whatever works for you, and you think sounds best. That is best part, there is choice.

[pooterpatty]

Poot - I'd love to know what tricks you use to tweak your pre sets and sounds. You get the smoothest most natural sounding patch tones I've heard.

Do you have a system of what you look to tweak first?

It depends on what particular tune you're talking about. Sometimes I'll play with patches I built from the ground up, sometimes one of the Pod presets fits the bill perfectly.

I agree with Shred as well. I'm saving my pennies for an X3L, now that I've heard what the X3 can do via Pod Farm, I'm hooked.

[meesh]

Meesh, I think you get some *great* tones. I thought you used a toneport for recording?

Thanks losty...I do use gearbox but I figure recording through gearbox is the same thing really...no? I still think most of my tones are really thin..or waaay too bassy. hard to find the medium.

Hard to say exactly poot...one exmple is the soloing of yours on one of Bill's last links (damn, can't remember the name) but it was sooo smooth with a little crunch to it. You labeled it as pootstrat or something like that.

[atalwar]

Nice post guys.
Here's my story too (some of you might remember I sought a advice few months back on similar thing)

I personally was not getting that thing outta pod (and believe me when i tweak i tweak the *bleep* outta things) for myself. had really given up on it. I could nail the tone i wanted but not the feel or vice versa. i mean the thing when you pick up your guitar and just can't put it down". perhaps it is my uber heavy touch and lame playing style.

(call 1-800-xxxx-xxxx for direct tv ordering) (i know it sounds that lame)

ok back to serious stuff:

so what i did was spent a lotta time yet again and then some serious $$$ and bought a tube pedal (sd sfx-03 twin tube).

Still a much cheaper alternative to what i was going/wanting for a 6505+ (the only thing available here except other than some not to my taste randall tube amps).

ironically as i found out,Many times what you want can be very different than what you need.

How has it changed the tone of pod for me : Not very much, unless i want use it for tone shaping or loads of sustain.

How has it changed the feel for me: can't play (for 90% of what i play) without it before my pod. ( it gives me that buttery feel (and some cloud of sweetness) i just was not getting without doing some really complex vst fx chains of multi band compressors eq's and what not. a real PITA to set up and play with latency issues, save reload and all).

it just adds a very little touch , that is all i needed.

And with the dual tone thing in podfarm, i can get just about all tones i want. (exception be noted: "that Gilmour tone")

so conclusion to my own short story from My own point of view is: Modeling can give you 90% of the thing even perhaps 95% on recording. (as nearly all the analog imperfections can't be modeled )

but if you need a bit more there are still ways without going fully analog.

full analog does not allow me to play at 4 am with gunz blazing (atleast not without some serious $$$$), modeling does.
To me everything is real to the extent of everything being unreal. and it shouldn't matter real or unreal as long as it gives what you want in the least complex way possible (and $$$).

if i were to put my pod and tube pedal in a vintage looking cabinet and rewire the knobs and panels with a nice face plate and a GRILL. I would buy it eyes closed if under ($1500) thinking i bought the real thing and perhaps be satisfied for rest of life on the deal.

btw guys, if you happen to be near guitar center, do try this SD pedal or infact any decent tube driven (ie. the non tube as clipping stage only) preamp feeding your pod or toneport or your software vst etc (as GC has a 30 day return policy if you don't like the thing u can always return it , atleast you don't have the risk i took and sure am glad i did).

If you already have a decent tube driven amp, see if you can have your pod or toneport in it's buffered fx loop send (the preamp on clean just driving/eq'ing the pod/toneport a bit and the pod going directly into puter). You might as well get some really great results with the stuff you already have.

btw, Has anybody played/tried a pod through a single ended hi-fi stereo tube amp ?

~amit

[meesh]

Good post atalwar...btw I'm going to New Delhi the first week of December for around 10 days. Any advice for a yankee who's never been to India before?

[lostylost]

Any you guys had experience with the boutique modeler `Axe Fx` or `Axe Fx Ultra`? Apparently they are the goods. I have never actually used a tube amp but apparently they recreate that `feel`.

[atalwar]

Good post atalwar...btw I'm going to New Delhi the first week of December for around 10 days. Any advice for a yankee who's never been to India before?

Welcome my friend,
Keep an eye on what and where you eat (try to drink/insist on bottled water only) and be wary of your cash and pocket and try to haggle'n'bargain when you can if you go shopping.

Other than that enjoy your stay and don't be surprised if it comes as a opposite culture to you or if you are not used to seeing a million people on the streets half of em doing just nuthin.

feel free to mail me any questions or anything you want to know.

[Charvelguy]

What Amit says is exactly my sentiment on why I choose a modeler vs the real thing.
For me to own a Bogner, (and not just one), but like 4 different ones, Uber, Shiva, Ecstacy, Fish and now the Alchemist looks cool...I would need a warehouse. Well, I need a warehouse anyways but thats besides the point.
I am a tube gear and rackmount whore but this argument all started back when the options were tubes vs SS. Modelers have come leaps and bounds in the past 10 years and has made classic and ever changing modern tones available in a very real sense of the real deal to anyone who is willing to pony up and plug in.

As mentioned, to tweak is essential, and to not tweak is a matter of taste.

Back when the only option to get modeling was a 3000 dollar midi guitar synth setup - that was your predecessor to the birth of modeling. It was a matter of the haves and the have nots or artist endorsement.

We see the birth of the hybrids in the auto industry taking the same course of being made available to the masses and honing its practicality based upon technology. Phones, TV, computers, portable audio equipment all went through similar evolutions.

I've used a J-station, boss GS-10 or rockman through a hi fi stereo setups for years, that was how I recorded ideas for a long time but also served as my jam amp at times. Playing a preamp through a stereo setup too via RCA or just 1/4 to 1/4.

Having a toneport or Pod has replaced the need for me to lug out a vint JMP 50 watt Marshall setup, and its 'oneness' of it sounds good for this particular tone but its not cutting it on the clean or visa versa limitations.

For me, modelers have mated the versitility of rack setups with the tones of the combo, half -full stack mayhem of old and/or new...and its come damn close in serving those tones up in a very realistic fashion way moreso than the arguments of the old Tube vs SS days.

The only issue I have still with some modelers is the note decay...but those are typically dated hardware only units not utilizing software loaded on a higher tech computer other than to create personalized patches.

[ShredRex]

Exactly....$500 US for a POD X3 Live......or $20,000 to buy all the real stuff. And again once it is in the recording can you tell it is modeling or the real thing?

Ease of use, bang for your buck, and the fact it sounds as good as it does (the new POD X3 are the best sounding ever, trust me) modeling is where it is at anymore.

[redbaron]

Thre's one more point: How many guitars do you play? As I've probably mentioned before, I play 8. That means that I really do play each one of them depending on my day's mood or a sound I'm looking for or because one of the guitars looks lonely. Each one of them is different - from the vintage-style singlecoils on my Strat that hum like the dickens to the high gain EMG81s on the Yamaha that sound like a wah pedal in half swing.

How could I manage all this on one regular amp?! I'd be tweaking the day away! So what I have is a little library of presets I built on the Gearbox. They're called "Strat Heavy" or "V Blues" and the like. This way I just sit down, pick a guitar, select the sound, and off I go!

Obviously that would be different if, like for so many guitarists, there was that one guitar, that one sound for me. "A 69 Strat and a Fender Dual Reverb", period. If that was the case, I guess I wouldn't bother with the modeling and just get the real thing.